Talk:Henry I of England

First Sentence

There's something wrong with the first sentence of this article, but I'm unsure what it's meant to say: "..was the fourth son of William I the Conqueror [of?] the first England"

Imperial measures

Weren't units of measurement such as the yard, foot and so on first standardised by Henry I? Surely this is an important part of his legacy.

Children

I note that the existence of Euphemia is considered unlikely, but how is it even possible, given that the postulated birth month is less than 9 months before the birth of Matilda?

-Dan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.170.240.10 (talk) 17:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The children section is a complete mess. Pipera (talk) 09:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Name

What's the meaning of Beauclerc? --2A02:908:C33:A180:9871:CF94:39BE:E6CE (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep, presumably the "well-learnèd" or the "good clerk", but just came here to post that this needs to be covered. — LlywelynII 04:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Ancestry

The source given for this ancestry do not support the information being put in the article. Carpenter pp. 531-532 does not show Richard II or Judith of Brittany nor Fulbert nor Herleva nor Doda nor Baldwin V nor Baldwin IV nor Ogive nor Robert II nor Constance nor Adela of France nor Matilda of flanders. Green shows the wife of William I as Matilda, but does not give any ancestry for her nor for William the Conqueror. Thus, an edit claiming that those sources support the information is wrong and should not be repeated. Adding refrences that do not support the text is not good editing and should not happen. Ealdgyth (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Victoria, what do you think about to add his ancestry by using these sources?

Ancestors of Henry I of England (c. 1068–1135)

16. Richard I of Normandy 8. Richard II of Normandy 17. Gunnor 4. Robert I of Normandy 18. Conan I of Brittany 9. Judith of Brittany 19. Ermengarde-Gerberga of Anjou 2. William I the Conqueror of England 10. Fulbert of Falaise 5. Herleva of Falaise 11. Doda or Duxia? 1. Henry I of England 24. Arnulf II of Flanders 12. Baldwin IV of Flanders 25. Rozala of Italy 6. Baldwin V of Flanders 26. Frederick of Luxembourg 13. Ogive of Luxembourg 27. Irmtrud of Wetterau? 3. Matilda of Flanders 28. Hugh Capet 14. Robert II of France 29. Adelaide of Aquitaine 7. Adela of France and Flanders 30. William I of Provence 15. Constance of Arles 31. Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou

Sources:

• Bernard Burke, Ashworth P. Burke (1934). A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the Privy Council, Knightage, and Companionage. 1934
• Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, William Ryland Beall, Kaleen E. Beall. Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before 1700: Lineages from Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Other Historical Individuals. 2008 ISBN 0806317523, ISBN 9780806317526

References

Dmitry Azikov (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

It's excessive and there's a family tree in the article already. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

We use academic historians as sources for medieval history, not genealogists, who are less reliable. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello Dudley, but unfortunately mostly only genealogical sources like Burke's peerage which I can source and reference are completely or partially in the free public domain... Is very old Burke's peerage a bad source? Dmitry Azikov (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Then it is better to edit articles which you do have access to reliable sources for. However, it is worth checking what you can get from libraries in your area. In Britain you can get most sources from public libraries through the inter-library loan service, although this can take some time. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

What other wikipedia's do is not relevant to what the rules are here on English wikipedia. In general, we are not a genealogical source - we should not aim to present genealogical information. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. And unsourced information is also not acceptable - please do not introduce unsourced information. And you shouldn't combine unrelated sources to produce family trees - if the sources for a subject's life do not give a four or five generation ancestral tree, then per WP:UNDUE and WP:OR, we should not combine unrelated sources to produce information that sources about a subject do not consider important about that subject. FOr Henry - we should report what the high quality sources provide about his ancestry - in this case Green and Hollister. Green only lists Henry's parents but also includes information on his siblings, which an ahnentafel does not provide. Hollister provides a table with the descent of the Norman rulers, but no other ancestry for Henry, while also showing his collateral relatives who were involved in his biography. It does not show remote ancestors shuch as Ogive or Judith of Brittany. Thus it's clear that biographers of Henry don't consider a chart of all of his ancestors at all useful and thus its not WP:DUE. That leaves aside the issue of using outdated sources like Burke's A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the Privy Council, Knightage, and Companionage or strictly genealogical sources like Weis (also - which edition of Weis is being referenced - there are 8 of them, after all.) Ealdgyth (talk) 12:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I'm not so experienced in adding good sources. For a long time due to watching wikipedia and genealogical sources I was sure that genealogy and ancestries of English king starting from houses of Normandy, Blois and Plantagenet-Anjou were well documentated in most pieces. Dmitry Azikov (talk) 13:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

So, I don't Live in Great Britain or United States Dmitry Azikov (talk) 13:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Children of Henry I

It is a complete mess; would this be acceptable practice here.

Issue more ... Matilda, Holy Roman Empress William Adelin, Duke of Normandy Illegitimate : Robert, 1st Earl of Gloucester Aline, Lady of Montmorency Juliane de Fontevrault Matilda, Countess of Perche Richard of Lincoln Sybilla, Queen of Scots Reginald, 1st Earl of Cornwall Matilda, Duchess of Brittany Robert, Lord of Okehampton Matilda, Abbess of Montvilliers Henry FitzRoy Fulk FitzRoy Gilbert FitzRoy

Legitimate House of Normandy

William the Conqueror invades England William I William II Henry I Stephen Monarchy of the United Kingdom vte In addition to Matilda and William,[88] Henry possibly had a short-lived son, Richard, with his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.[99] Henry and his second wife, Adeliza of Louvain, had no children.

Illegitimate Henry had a number of illegitimate children by various mistresses.[nb 32]

Sons Robert FitzRoy, Earl of Gloucester, born in the 1090s to a woman of Gay family of north Oxfordshire;[333] Richard, born to Ansfride, brought up by Robert Bloet, the Bishop of Lincoln;[334] Reginald de Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall, born in the 1110s or early 1120s, possibly to Sibyl Corbet;[335] Robert FitzEdith, born to Edith Forne;[336] Gilbert FitzRoy, possibly born to an unnamed sister or daughter of Walter of Gand;[337] William de Tracy, possibly born in the 1090s;[337] Henry FitzRoy, possibly born to Nest ferch Rhys;[336][nb 33] Fulk FitzRoy, possibly born to Ansfride;[336] William, the full brother of Sybilla of Normandy, probably also of Reginald de Dunstanville.[338] Daughters Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche;[339] Matilda FitzRoy; Duchess of Brittany.[339] Juliane, wife of Eustace of Breteuil, possibly born to Ansfrida;[340] Mabel, wife of William Gouet;[341] Constance, Viscountess of Beaumont-sur-Sarthe;[342] Aline, wife of Matthew de Montmorency;[343] Isabel, daughter of Isabel de Beaumont, Countess of Pembroke;[343] Sybilla de Normandy, Queen of Scotland, probably born before 1100;[343][nb 34] Matilda Fitzroy, Abbess of Montivilliers;[343] Gundrada de Dunstanville;[343] Possibly Rohese, wife of Henry de la Pomerai;[343][nb 35] Emma, wife of Guy of Laval;[344] Adeliza;[344] Elizabeth Fitzroy, the wife of Fergus of Galloway;[344] Possibly Sibyl of Falaise.[344][nb 36]

What does that mean?

Added yesterday, the article is a mess. There is no distinction between actual wived and mistress, and at no time has anyone fixed this up, I came here to do so, and was reversed with a nonacademic response, and off the cuff remarks.

The information below is here on Wikipedia, and have provided links.

I cannot accept that someone can come here and reverse:

q) information that is correct b) Has hyperlinks here, ad referenced in other foreign language Wikipedia sites c) Off the cuff remarks are NOT acceptable to me and shows great disrespect to someone that has come here and added correct information.,

Proposed changes

Legitimate Henry had a number of illegitimate children by various mistresses. Henry I of England married Matilda of Scotland they had issue: Euphamia (d. July 1101) William Adelin died Normandy 25 Nov 1120 White Ship disaster. Matilda she married Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor (no issue.) Matilda married Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou they had issue: Henry II of England married Eleanor of Aquitaine William FitzEmpress Geoffrey, Count of Nantes Henry I of England married Adeliza of Louvain married 29 January 1121 had no issue. Illegitimate Henry had a number of illegitimate children by various mistresses. Henry I of England by Woman from Gay they had one son: Robert FitzRoy, Earl of Gloucester, born in the 1090s to a woman of Gay family of north Oxfordshire; Henry I of England by Edith Forne they had issue: Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche ; died 25 November 1120 on the White Ship Robert FitzEdith, born to Edith Forne ; Henry I of England by Ansfride She was the wife of Anskill of Seacourt, at Wytham in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire) they had issue: Richard, brought up by Robert Bloet, the Bishop of Lincoln ; Juliane, wife of Eustace of Breteuil, Fulk FitzRoy Henry I of England by Geva de Tracy they had one son: William de Tracy, possibly born in the 1090s; Henry I of England by Sybilla Corbet of Alcester.Sybilla Corbet of Alcester was born in 1077, in Alcester in Warwickshire. She married Herbert FitzHerbert, son of Herbert "the Chamberlain" of Winchester and Emma de Blois. She died after 1157, and was also known as Adela (or Lucia) Corbet. Sybil was definitely mother of Sybil and Rainald, possibly also of William and Rohese. Some sources suggest that there was another daughter by this relationship, Gundred, but it appears that she was thought as such because she was a sister of Reginald de Dunstanville but it appears that that was another person of that name who was not related to this family. Reginald de Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall, born in the 1110s or early 1120s Sybilla de Normandy, Queen of Scotland, probably born before 1100; Henry I of England by Nest ferch Rhys Nest ferch Rhys was born about 1073, at Dynefwr Castle, Carmarthenshire, the daughter of Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth and his wife, Gwladys ferch Rhywallon. She married, in 1095, to Gerald de Windsor (also known as Geraldus FitzWalter) son of Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. She had several other liaisons—including one with Stephen of Cardigan, Constable of Cardigan (1136)—and subsequently other illegitimate children. The date of her death is unknown. Henry FitzRoy, ; Meiler Fitzhenry - Lord Chief Justice of Ireland Henry I of England mistress Isabel de Beaumont daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester husband of Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke and Hervey de Montmorency ; they issue. Isabel FitzRoy Unknown Mistress’s Gilbert FitzRoy, possibly born to an unnamed sister or daughter of Walter of Gand; Constance, Viscountess of Beaumont-sur-Sarthe; Matilda FitzRoy; Duchess of Brittany. Elizabeth Fitzroy, the wife of Fergus of Galloway Mabel, wife of William Gouet; Aline, wife of Matthew de Montmorency ; Matilda Fitzroy, Abbess of Montivilliers; References

User talk:Eric reverted this for no reason.

What gets me is they are all HYPERLINKED to Wikipedia pages and all are here and nothing was added that was not hyperlinked here.

So, if there is no objection in 48 hours I will place this back in the article. I am now awaiting your replies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pipera (talk • contribs) 23:47, December 31, 2024 (UTC)

Per the policy Wikipedia:NOTGENEALOGY and since this article is an Featured article, there should be no grandchildren of Henry I of England listed in the Family and children section.

Also, "Isabel FitzRoy", added by Pipera is not referenced. All information should be referenced in a Featured article.

As such, the Family and children section should remain the way Eric reverted it to.--Kansas Bear 00:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Problems with the proposed edits

Addressing the issues with these edits:

• "Henry I of England married Matilda of Scotland they had issue:" is unsourced (it was previously sourced). It also repeats information already present in the article previous to this, so it is repetition.
• "Euphamia (d. July 1101)" is unsourced, and was not even in the article previously
• "William Adelin died Normandy 25 Nov 1120 White Ship disaster." is unsourced. It also repeats information already present in the article previous to this, so it is repetition.
• "Matilda she married Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor (no issue.)" is unsourced. It also repeats information already present in the article previous to this, so it is repetition
• "Matilda married Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou they had issue:" is unsourced It also repeats information already present in the article previous to this, so it is repetition.
• "Henry II of England married Eleanor of Aquitaine" is unsourced and we don't need to know who Henry II married anyway in an article about his grandfather who died when Henry II was 3
• "William FitzEmpress" is unsourced
• "Geoffrey, Count of Nantes" is unsourced
• "Henry I of England married Adeliza of Louvain married 29 January 1121 had no issue." is unsourced and why is the word "married" repeated?
• "Henry had a number of illegitimate children by various mistresses." is unsourced (it was previously sourced)
• "Henry I of England by Woman from Gay they had one son:" first, it's not a "Woman from Gay" (which implies that she was from a place named Gay), but the "Gai" or "Gait" family from Oxfordshire. Second, Robert of Gloucester is only possibly a son of a woman of the Gai/Gait family. Thompson argues that a Norman mother, possibly from Rouen, is also possible.
• "Robert FitzRoy, Earl of Gloucester, born in the 1090s to a woman of Gay family of north Oxfordshire;" there is no need for the semi-colon here, and see above, where the source is equivocal about his mother being a member of the Gai/Gait family. Nor does the source call him "Robert FitzRoy" but rather "Robert of Gloucester", nor does the source say "north Oxfordshire".
• "Henry I of England by Edith Forne they had issue:" unsourced and what a strange phrasing ...
• "Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche ; died 25 November 1120 on the White Ship" - minor issue - why the space before the semicolon? The "died 25 November 1120 on the White Ship" is unsourced. The source given does not call her "Matilda FitzRoy", just "Matilda, Countess of Perche". Nor does it give her mother at all.
• "Robert FitzEdith, born to Edith Forne ;" again, why the space before the semicolon (which isn't needed here at all)? And the sources call him "Robert the King's son". Thompson doesn't give his mother, but Green does in a chart on p. 323 (not 322) where he is the only child of Edith daughter of Forne, not Edith Forne. And why say "born to Edith Forne" when the heading above repeats that?
• "Henry I of England by Ansfride She was the wife of Anskill of Seacourt, at Wytham in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire) they had issue:" Why is "She" capitalized? And this is unsourced.
• "Richard, brought up by Robert Bloet, the Bishop of Lincoln ;" - once more, why the space before the semicolon (which again isn't needed here)? The source says on page 146 "In this respect her career would mirror that of the widow, Ansfride, mother of number 2 above" which even if this source is supposed to cover the previous heading, does not support "She was the wife of Anskill of Seacourt, at Wytham in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire) "
• Juliane, wife of Eustace of Breteuil, [6]" - why the space before the comma (which isn't needed here)? Thompson says that her name is Juliana . Green p. 323 (not 322) has a dotted line connecting Juliana with Ansfrida, so it is assumed that the mother is not confirmed. Note that the previous version of the article says "possibly born to Ansfrida"
• "Fulk FitzRoy" with a space before the ref (which is wrong). This is sourced to Thompson p. 146, and Green 322. But Thompson calls him "Fulk the King's son" and then further says "but it is unlikely that he is the son of the king's companion Ansfride". Green likewise only connects Ansfrida and Fulk with a dotted line, so scholars are not sure of the connection.
• "Henry I of England by Geva de Tracy they had one son:" unsourced and again, weird phrasing.
• "William de Tracy, possibly born in the 1090s;" - why the semicolon, it's not needed. And Thompson, the source, does not give a possible birth year - just says "If so, this would place William in his 40s at the time of his death, shortly after Henry I’s own death in 1135" which goes beyond the source a bit. Nor does the source given support his mother being Geva.
• "Henry I of England by Sybilla Corbet of Alcester.Sybilla Corbet of Alcester was born in 1077, in Alcester in Warwickshire. She married Herbert FitzHerbert, son of Herbert "the Chamberlain" of Winchester and Emma de Blois. She died after 1157, and was also known as Adela (or Lucia) Corbet. Sybil was definitely mother of Sybil and Rainald, possibly also of William and Rohese. Some sources suggest that there was another daughter by this relationship, Gundred, but it appears that she was thought as such because she was a sister of Reginald de Dunstanville but it appears that that was another person of that name who was not related to this family." is utterly unsourced (and has the error of missing a space after one sentence). Also the "that that was" is an error.
• "Reginald de Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall, born in the 1110s or early 1120s " - again, has a space before the ref, which is a constant error. This is sourced to Thompson p. 143-146, which does NOT begin to support the information that is related in the heading above Reginald's name about Sybil Corbet.
• "Sybilla de Normandy, Queen of Scotland, probably born before 1100;" there is a space between the reference and the explanatory note (yet another frequent error) and this is sourced to Thompson p. 149, who is first calls her "Sibyl, Queen of Scotland" and second is quite clear that they do not regard it as certain that she was a daughter of Sibyl Corbet.
• "Henry I of England by Nest ferch Rhys Nest ferch Rhys was born about 1073, at Dynefwr Castle, Carmarthenshire, the daughter of Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth and his wife, Gwladys ferch Rhywallon. She married, in 1095, to Gerald de Windsor (also known as Geraldus FitzWalter) son of Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. She had several other liaisons—including one with Stephen of Cardigan, Constable of Cardigan (1136)—and subsequently other illegitimate children. The date of her death is unknown." is utterly unsourced.
• "Henry FitzRoy, ;" why a comma, then a space, then a semicolon, then the reference, then another space, then the explanatory note? This is sourced to Thompson p. 146 and Green p. 322. Thompson calls him "Henry the King's son" not "FitzRoy" and in the main part of their article (pp. 131-132) casts some doubt on whether Henry was really son of King Henry I, so it's disingenuous to attach Thompson to this name as if Thompson was sure that the Nest's son Henry was the son of King Henry.
• "Meiler Fitzhenry - Lord Chief Justice of Ireland" unsourced and we do not need to know the grandchildren of King Henry
• Henry I of England mistress Isabel de Beaumont daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester husband of Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke and Hervey de Montmorency ; they issue." much of this is ungrammatical and the source does not support it. The mention is "7. Isabel, daughter of Isabel, Countess of Pembroke" (Thompson p. 149)
• "Isabel FitzRoy" unsourced, and if Thompson p. 149 is supposed to be the source, Thompson does not call her "FitzRoy"
• "Unknown Mistress’s" - Headings should be sentence case, not title case, and it should be "mistresses"
• "Gilbert FitzRoy, possibly born to an unnamed sister or daughter of Walter of Gand;" no need for the semicolon and this is sourced to Thompson p. 146, who merely calls him "Gilbert"
• "Constance, Viscountess of Beaumont-sur-Sarthe;" no need for the semicolon
• "Matilda FitzRoy; Duchess of Brittany." again, no need for the period here and Thompson p. 147 just calls her "Matilda, Duchess of Brittany"
• "Elizabeth Fitzroy, the wife of Fergus of Galloway" unsourced. Thompson p. 150 says "Wife of Fergus of Galloway: G.W.S. Barrow deduced that another daughter married Fergus of Galloway, but there is no evidence for the suggestion that she was Isabel, daughter of Isabel, Countess of Pembroke. It has recently been suggested that such a marriage might date from the early 1120s." which does not support the name given here.
• "Mabel, wife of William Gouet;" no need for the semicolon
• "Aline, wife of Matthew de Montmorency ;" no need for the semicolon and there should be no space before the semicolon either
• "Matilda Fitzroy, Abbess of Montivilliers;" no need for the semicolon. The source, Thompson p. 149, does not call her "Matilda Fitzroy"
• It should be noted that Thompson's daughter #13 "Adeliza, the king's daughter" plus other suggested/once suggested daughters of Henry have been removed. Also Thompson's son #9 - William the brother of Queen Sibyl.

In short, the older version is much less problematic. Ealdgyth (talk) 00:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, and "On 11 November 1100 Henry married Matilda, the daughter of Malcolm III of Scotland," had its source removed for no discernable reason. Ealdgyth (talk) 00:47, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England

2001 FAQ

Contributors and Editors

Stewart Baldwin, FASG

Todd A. Farmerie

Peter Stewart

First launched 2001

Transferred to website of the American Society of Genealogists, 1 July 2020

Canonical URL: https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm

He is the expert in this context, so refer to actual referenced information in any reply. Pipera (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Not withstanding:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_I_of_England&diff=prev&oldid=149269689

Legitimate children

He had three children by Matilda (Edith), who died in 1118:

Euphamia, (c. 1101-?) Died young.

Matilda the Empress, (c. 1102-1167) Queen of England.

William the Aetheling, (1103-1120) Duke of Normandy.

Disaster struck when William, his only legitimate son, perished in the wreck of the White Ship on 25 November 1120 off the coast of Normandy. Also among the dead were two of Henry's illegitimate children, as well as a niece, Lucia-Mahaut de Blois. Henry's grieving was intense, and the succession was in crisis.

Second marriage

On 29 January 1121, he married Adeliza, daughter of Godfrey I of Leuven, Duke of Lower Lotharingia and Landgrave of Brabant, but there were no children from this marriage. Left without male heirs, Henry took the unprecedented step of making his barons swear to accept his daughter Empress Matilda, widow of Henry V, the Holy Roman Emperor, as his heir.

== Illegitimate children ==

King Henry is famed for holding the record for the largest number of acknowledged illegitimate children born to any English king, with the number being around 20 or 25. He had many mistresses, and identifying which mistress is the mother of which child is difficult. His illegitimate offspring for whom there is documentation are:

1. Robert, 1st Earl of Gloucester. Often, probably incorrectly, said to have been a son of Sybil Corbet. His mother may have been a member of the Gai/Gay/Gayt family.
2. Maud FitzRoy, married Conan III, Duke of Brittany
3. Constance FitzRoy, married Richard de Beaumont
4. Mabel FitzRoy, married William III Gouet
5. Aline FitzRoy, married Matthieu I of Montmorency
6. William de Tracy, died shortly after King Henry.
7. Gilbert FitzRoy, died after 1142. His mother may have been a sister of Walter de Gand.
8. Emma, born circa 1138; married Gui de Laval, Lord Laval. [Uncertain, born 2 years after Henry died.]

=== With Edith ===

1. Matilda du Perche, married Count Rotrou II of Perche, perished in the wreck of the White Ship.

=== With Ansfride ===

Ansfride was born c. 1070. She was the wife of Anskill of Seacourt, at Wytham in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire).

1. Juliane de Fontevrault, married Eustace de Pacy. She tried to shoot her father with a crossbow after King Henry allowed her two young daughters to be blinded.
2. Fulk FitzRoy, a monk at Abingdon.
3. Richard of Lincoln, perished in the wreck of the White Ship.

=== With Sybil Corbet ===

Lady Sybilla Corbet of Alcester was born in 1077 in Alcester in Warwickshire. She married Herbert FitzHerbert, son of Herbert 'the Chamberlain' of Winchester and Emma de Blois. She died after 1157 and was also known as Adela (or Lucia) Corbet. Sybil was definitely mother of Sybil and Rainald, possibly also of William and Rohese. Some sources suggest that there was another daughter by this relationship, Gundred, but it appears that she was thought as such because she was a sister of Reginald de Dunstanville but it appears that that was another person of that name who was not related to this family.

1. Sybilla of England, married King Alexander I of Scotland.
2. William Constable, born before 1105. Married Alice (Constable); died after 1187.
3. Reginald de Dunstanville, 1st Earl of Cornwall.
4. Gundred of England (1114 – 1146), married 1130 Henry de la Pomeroy, son of Joscelin de la Pomerai.
5. Rohese of England, born 1114; married Henry de la Pomeroy.

=== With Edith FitzForne ===

1. Robert FitzEdith, Lord Okehampton, (1093 – 1172) married Dame Maud d'Avranches du Sap.
2. Adeliza FitzEdith. Appears in charters with her brother Robert.

=== With Princess Nest ===

Nest ferch Rhys was born about 1073 at Dynefwr Castle, Carmarthenshire, the daughter of Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth and his wife, Gwladys ferch Rhywallon. She married, in 1095, to Gerald de Windsor (aka Geraldus FitzWalter) son of Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. She had several other liaisons - including one with Stephen of Cardigan, Constable of Cardigan (1136) - and subsequently other illegitimate children. The date of her death is unknown.

1. Henry FitzRoy, died 1157.

=== With Isabel de Beaumont ===

Isabel (Elizabeth) de Beaumont (after 1102 – after 1172), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, sister of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester. She married Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke, in 1130. She was also known as Isabella de Meulan.

1. Isabel Hedwig of England, born circa 1078
2. Matilda FitzRoy, abbess of Montvilliers, also known as Montpiller

Essentially the article has been rolled back by unexperienced people that have no idea about Henry I of England.

The article is incorrect, lacks authority lacks the breakup of his children and leads to confusion for all reading it despite what myself and others and The Henry Project come here to educate you in what is wrong, and clearly you are not listening. Pipera (talk) 19:03, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Category:Illegitimate children of Henry I of England - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Illegitimate_children_of_Henry_I_of_England

Category:Children of Henry I of England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Children_of_Henry_I_of_England Pipera (talk) 19:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Henri Ier (roi d'Angleterre) — Wikipédia https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Ier_(roi_d%27Angleterre) French Language.

Hendrik I van Engeland https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrik_I_van_Engeland Netherlands Wikipedia

Heinrich I. (England) https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_I._(England)

Wikiotree Unknown Mistresses of King Henry I of England - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Unknown_Mistresses_of_King_Henry_I_of_England

And you are arguing with what the rest of the world has done and we all in consensus to what this article should be. Even the French Wikipedia states what I have said and other foreign language sites as well.

Basically, what is here comes from https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Normandie-45

• Lady Matilda of Scotland - Quora Biography 1079-1118
• "History and genealogy of the Pomeroy family, colateral lines in family groups, Normandy, Great Britian and America; comprising the ancestors and descendants of Eltweed * Pomeroy from Beaminster, County Dorset, England, 1630[1631].."
• Henry I, King of England, in Burke's The Royal Families of England, Scotland and Wales, pg. Part 1, ix and x [See document in the Memories section]

Pipera (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Henry I of England - New World Encyclopedia https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Henry_I_of_England Pipera (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Henry I of England https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm You need to have a firm understanding of the Latin language to read his text. Pipera (talk) 19:28, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Shortcut

• WP:NOTGENEALOGY

Genealogical entries. Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#NOTGENEALOGY Pipera (talk) 19:33, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

= VIAF =

== Virtual International Authority File ==

https://viaf.org/viaf/59263727/

https://viaf.org/viaf/39365031/ Henry I of England.

About section

Suggest all of you read the many languages versions of Wikipedia as your comments are not in line with the rest of the worlds Wikipedia entries.

BTW I always use VIAF in all my genealogical searches. Pipera (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Versions of Wikipedia are not reliable sources for Wikipedia. Pipera's version is confusing and partially unsourced. The previous version is better. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:56, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

New World Encyclopedia is based off wikipedia - note the bottom of [entry on Henry I] where it states "New World Encyclopedia writers and editors rewrote and completed the Wikipedia article in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. This article abides by terms of the Creative Commons CC-by-sa 3.0 License (CC-by-sa), which may be used and disseminated with proper attribution. Credit is due under the terms of this license that can reference both the New World Encyclopedia contributors and the selfless volunteer contributors of the Wikimedia Foundation." Further, besides being based on a wikipedia article - see [NWE about page] where they state "This encyclopedia transcends the metaphysical assumptions of both the Enlightenment and Modern Encyclopedias. The originator of this project is Sun Myung Moon." i.e. the Unification Church. Wikitree is a user-generated site, so it is not a reliable source. The Henry Project does not support much of the suggested edits - it does not consider Henry and his wife to have had a daughter named Euphemia, doesn't call Robert of Gloucester "Robert FitzRoy" nor says that his mother was a member of the Gay family. In fact, none of the children of Henry are given the surname "FitzRoy/Fitzroy" on the Henry Project. Nor does that project state unequivocally that Sibyl was surnamed Corbet, or that Edith was surnamed "Forne", nor give a name for the wife of Fergus of Galloway (and calls that daughter just probably a daughter of the king). So this source (if it's reliable) is not a support for the suggested text. Most of what is written above is not actually dealing with the problems pointed out with the proposed text. It isn't helpful. (Sorry for the lack of indenting but I cannot figure out where to put it because Pipera has not followed the usual talk page conventions.) Ealdgyth (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I also prefer the old formatting, which is much simpler, easier to read and better formatted. Pipera's version is very confused and badly formatted, with inappropriate bold text, poor grammar, multiple typos, and tedious over-repetition. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The Henry Project

The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England

2001 FAQ

Contributors and Editors

Stewart Baldwin, FASG

Todd A. Farmerie

Peter Stewart

First launched 2001

Transferred to website of the American Society of Genealogists, 1 July 2020

Canonical URL: https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm

He is the expert in this context, so refer to actual referenced information in any reply.

Pipera (talk) 20:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Fellows > Stewart Baldwin - American Society of Genealogists https://fasg.org/fellows/stewart-baldwin/ Pipera (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

“The Paxson Brothers of Pennsylvania: A Reassessment of the Evidence,” NGSQ 83 (1995): 39–43.

“Grace Perkes, Wife of Thomas1 Worrilaw of Chester County, Pennsylvania: A Correction,” TAG 71 (1996): 19–20.

“The Supposed Royal Ancestry of the Lloyd Siblings of Pennsylvania,” TAG 71 (1996): 77–84.

“Quaker Marriage Certificates: Using Witness Lists in Genealogical Research,” TAG 72 (1997): 225–43.

“George1 Maris of Chester County, Pennsylvania,” TG 13 (1999): 216–51.

“John1 And Thomas1 Bowater And Their Sister Mary1 (Bowater) Wright: Early Quaker Immigrants to Pennsylvania”, TAG 75 (2000): 37–46, 117–23.

“Lothlend, Dublin, and the Early Kings of Norway,” Norsk Slektshistorisk Tidsskrift 37 (2000): 227–32.

“Mike Ashley’s Mammoth Book Of British Kings & Queens: A Review Article,” TAG 76 (2001): 62–65.

“The English Ancestry of George1 Pownall of Bucks County, Pennsylvania: With Notes on Thomas1 Pownall, Governor of Massachusetts Bay and South Carolina,” TAG 76 (2001): 81–93, 217–26.

“On a Supposed Descent from the High Kings of Ireland,” TAG 76 (2001): 282–87.

“The Family of Edward1 Morgan of Pennsylvania: Daniel Boone’s Maternal Kin,” TG 15 (2001): 104–28, 172–95; 16 (2002): 71–92, 234–54.

“A Note on the Ancestry of Ecgberht of Wessex,” TAG 78 (2003): 130–37.

“The English Ancestry of Nicholas1 Waln and Anne1 (Waln) Dilworth Sibthorp,” Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine 43 (2003): 7-17.

“John1 Simcock of Chester County, Pennsylvania,” TG 18 (2004): 3–53.

“Hugh1 Jones of Plymouth, Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania: His Claimed Royal Ancestry Disproved and His Probable Parentage Found,” TAG 80 (2005): 117–21.

“On the Supposed Royal Ancestry of John1 ap Edward, Evan1 ap Edward, and William1 ap Edward of Pennsylvania,” TAG 82 (2007): 17–31.

“The Parentage of Otgiva ‘of Luxemburg’: An Unsolved Tenth- and Eleventh-Century Problem,” TAG 83 (2008): 116–21.

“The Ancestry of Count Conan le Tort of Brittany,” TG 24 (2010): 169–88.

“Cuthbert1 Hayhurst: Quaker Immigrant to Pennsylvania,” TAG 84 (2010): 161–75.

Text, he has written. Pipera (talk) 20:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Viable Children Using Purchased Materials for Citing References

The list presented is inaccurate and many on the list have been proven to be not his children, you are using outdated information.

Sons
• Robert FitzRoy, Earl of Gloucester, born in the 1090s to a woman of Gay family of north Oxfordshire;[333]
• Richard, born to Ansfride, brought up by Robert Bloet, the Bishop of Lincoln;[334] ]
• Reginald de Dunstanville, Earl of Cornwall, born in the 1110s or early 1120s, possibly to Sibyl Corbet;[335] ]
• Robert FitzEdith, born to Edith Forne;[336] ]
• Gilbert FitzRoy, possibly born to an unnamed sister or daughter of Walter of Gand;[337] ]
• William de Tracy, possibly born in the 1090s;[337] ]
• Henry FitzRoy, possibly born to Nest ferch Rhys;[336][nb 33] ]
• Fulk FitzRoy, possibly born to Ansfride;[336] ]
• William, the full brother of Sybilla of Normandy, probably also of Reginald de Dunstanville.[338] Daughters
• Matilda FitzRoy, Countess of Perche;[339] ]
• Matilda FitzRoy; Duchess of Brittany.[339] ]
• Juliane, wife of Eustace of Breteuil, possibly born to Ansfrida;[340] • Mabel, wife of William Gouet;[341] ]
• Constance, Viscountess of Beaumont-sur-Sarthe;[342] ]
• Aline, wife of Matthew de Montmorency;[343] ]
• Isabel, daughter of Isabel de Beaumont, Countess of Pembroke;[343] ]
• Sybilla de Normandy, Queen of Scotland, probably born before 1100;[343][nb 34] ]
• Matilda Fitzroy, Abbess of Montivilliers;[343] ]
• Gundrada de Dunstanville;[343] ]
• Possibly Rohese, wife of Henry de la Pomerai;[343][nb 35] ]
• Emma, wife of Guy of Laval;[344] ]
• Adeliza;[344] ]
• Elizabeth Fitzroy, the wife of Fergus of Galloway;[344] ]
• Possibly Sibyl of Falaise.[344][nb 36]

Thompson, K. (2003). Affairs of State: the illegitimate children of Henry I. Journal of Medieval History, 29(2), 129–151. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0304-4181(03)00015-0

This source you have to purchase to verify the text.

Also, this entry relies mainly on materials that someone needs to purchase.

This is of concern when people coming here click on a reference search for the text and learn they have to pay for the text to verify information contained within this text.

He had 22 children to various mistress. It is very well to place a list here and not undertake proper research when doing so.

This does not address the concerns raised above. There is no requirement that sources need to be freely available. Please stop spamming this list/other lists and address the issues raised with the proposed text. Spamming unrelated information (such as a list of articles written by Stewart Baldwin) or repeatedly including the proposed text without addressing the problems pointed out is starting to get disruptive. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:12, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm is not spam, if you have any concerns about his work, please email him directly.

There is a requirement in any academic writing is to have works that are freely available so that people can check the sources. In this case the article is has referenced materials that are VALID however they need to be academically supported by other articles that are free for everyone concerned.

If you read the link he has referenced Green as a source so this is hardly spam

=== Bibliography ===

AC = Annales Cambriae.

Anderson (1908) = Alan Orr Anderson, Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers A.D. 500 to 1286 (London, 1908, reprinted Stamford, 1991).

Angot (1942) = Angot, Généalogies féodales mayennaises du xi au xiii siècle (Laval, 1942).

ASC = Charles Plummer, Two of the Saxon Chronicles parallel, based on the earlier edition by John Earle, 2 vols. (Oxford, 1892-9). ASC(A) indicates the "A" manuscript of the chronicle, and similarly for the other manuscripts.

Chibnall (1991) = Marjorie Chibnall, The Empress Matilda (Oxford, UK & Cambridge, MA, USA, 1991)

Chr. Mon. Abington = Joseph Stevenson, ed., Chronicon Monasterii de Abington, 2 vols. (Roll Series 2, London, 1858).

Chr. Rob. Tor. = L. C. Bethemann, ed., Roberti de Monte Chronica (a continuation by Robert de Torigny of the chronicle of Sigebert de Gembloux), MGH SS 6, 476-535.

CP = The Complete Peerage.

Cumming (1857) = J. G. Cumming, "A Brief Notice of Manx Civil and Ecclesiastical History", Archaeologia Cambrensis 3rd ser. 3 (1857), 45-54.

DNB = Dictionary of National Biography.

Eadmer = Martin Rule, ed., Eadmeri Historia Novorum in Anglia, et opuscula duo, de Vita Sancti Anselmi et quibusdam miraculis ejus (Rolls Series 81, London, 1884).

ESSH = Alan Orr Anderson, Early Sources of Scottish History, 2 vols. (Edinburgh, 1922, reprinted Stamford, 1990). [Contains English translations of many of the primary records]

Finberg (1948) = H. P. R. Finberg, "Some Early Tavistock Charters", English Historical Review 62 (1948), 352-377.

Girald. Camb. = Brewer, Dimcok, Warner, eds., Giraldi Cambrensis Opera, 8 vols. (Rolls Series 21, 1861-91).

GND = Guillaume de Jumièges, Gesta Normannorum Ducum, as edited in Elisabeth van Houts, ed. & trans., The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni, 2 vols., (Oxford, 1992). Citation is by book and chapter of Guillaume's work, with the volume and page number of the edition by van Houts in parentheses. Unless otherwise stated, references are to Guillaume's work, and not to later additions by such authors as Orderic Vitalis and Robert de Torigny.

GND (Rob. Tor.) = Additions to GND by Robert de Torigny.

Hen. Hunt. = Thomas Arnold, ed., Henrici Archidiaconi Huntendunensis Historia Anglorum. The History of the English, by Henry, Archdeacon of Huntingdon (Rolls Series 74, London, 1879).

John Worc. = Benjamin Thorpe, ed., Florentii Wigorniensis monachi chronicon ex chronicis, 2 vols., (London, 1848-9). (The work formerly attributed to Florence of Worcester is now generally attributed to John of Worcester.)

Lib. Monast. Hyde = Edward Edwards, ed., Liber Monasterii de Hyda: a Chronicle and Chartulary of Hyde Abbey, Winchester, 455-1023 (Rolls Series 45, London, 1866).

Monast. Angl. = William Dugdale, ed. (new ed. by Caley, Ellis, Bandniel), Monasticon Anglicanum (London, 1817-30).

OV = Augustus le Prevost, ed. Orderici Vitalis Historiæ Ecclesiasticæ, 5 vols. (Paris, 1838-55); also available in Marjorie Chibnall, ed. & trans., The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis, 6 vols. (Oxford, 1969-80). As I do not have easy access to all volumes of Chibnall's edition, citations here are given from Prevost's edition unless otherwsie stated.

PL = P. Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus, series Latina, 221 vols. (Paris, 1844-1859).

R. Dic. = William Stubbs, ed., Radulfi de Diceto Decani Lundonensis Opera Historica - The Historical Works of Master Ralph de Diceto Dean of London, 2 vols. (Rolls Series 68, London 1876).

RHF = Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France.

Rob. Glou. = William Aldis Wright, ed., The Metrical Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester, 2 vols. (Rolls Series 86, London, 1887).

Rog. Hov. = William Stubbs, ed., Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene, 5 vols. (Rolls Series 51, 1868). For an English translation, see Henry T. Riley, trans., The Annals of Roger de Hoveden, 2 vols. (London, 1853). Citations are from the edition of Stubbs.

Rössler (1897) = Oskar Rössler, Kaiserin Mathilde, Mutter Heinrichs von Anjou, und das Zeitalter der Anarchie in England (Historische Studien 7, Berlin, 1897).

Sim. Durh. = Thomas Arnold, ed., Symeonis Monachi Opera Omnia, 2 vols. (Rolls Series 75, 1882-5).

SP = Scot's Peerage

Thompson (2003) = Kathleen Thompson, "Affairs of State: the illegitimate children of Henry I", Journal of Medieval History 29 (2003): 129-151.

Weir (1989) = Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Families - The Complete Genealogy (London, 1989).

White = Geoffrey H. White, "Henry I's Illegitimate children", CP 11, Appendix D (pp. 105-121).

Wm. Malmes., Gesta Regum = William Stubbs, ed., Willelmi Malmesbiriensis Monachi De gestis regum Anglorum. libri quinque; Historiæ Novellæ libri tres, 2 vols. (Rolls series 90, 1887-9). [I lack easy access to the more recent edition of William of Malmesbury's work edited by Mynors, Thomson, & Winterbottom.]

I consider this well researched and supports his work, with original Latin text to support his work.

He clearly identifies the children and who is their parent.

You can opt out of this conversation at anytime you wish. Pipera (talk) 05:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Read The complete peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, Vol. 11

The Complete peerage: or a history of the House of Lords and all its members from the earliest times; v. 12

Free Resource has his children in depth.

He seems to know what he is writing about, and it is free of charge to read. Pipera (talk) 05:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The Complete Peerage - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Peerage available here free to read. Pipera (talk) 05:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Does not alter the fact an article had written her in 2007, and listed the concubines and wives, and someone decided to replace it, and no one said a thing about it, I decide to bring that back to the modern-day article and it gets rolled back, and with no academic response at or any talk on it before rolling it back.

The fact it was here in 2007, people came here and used that material, and it is as valid as the day I read it in 2007 as 16 years later when we have sons and daughters and you have to sort this out yourself, which is hardly useful to anyone concerned.

That is how it is. Pipera (talk) 05:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Death date

Hollister Henry I p. 474 says "Henry died at night on Sunday, 1 December." and has a footnote that says "The date is often noted as 2 December 1135 because of the medieval practice of closing a given date at nightfall." Green Henry I p. 220 says "He died on Sunday 1 December, either as night fell (according to Orderic) or during the hours that followed." Also - Weir says "1/2 December" not "1 or 2 December". In this case, 1/2 means in the night of the first into the second, which is a genealogical convention. The Handbook of British Chronology 3rd edition p. 35 also says that Henry died 1 Dec 1135. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I opened a talk page discussion. Please do not continue doing edits of adding a blank space in order to discuss the article through edit summaries, such as with this diff. Engage with my points above about two historians who explain why the oft-seen 2 Dec date is not correct, and please do not go off on a digression or repeating the edit you want to make here. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:26, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Please study Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and learn and practice how to reply to talk page posts. This is not done by starting a new heading but by indenting underneath the comment replyied to. Of your numbered points - #1 and #2 are primary sources and we do not base our entries on primary sources. For #3, Weir is not a historian and her work does not cite her sources, making it less reliable than the two biographies of Henry by Hollister and Green. #4 is a genealogical site which is pretty much self published - while it may be a good genealogical site, it's still not going to trump two historians who have studied Henry for their entire careers and who know the primary sources (see the bit about Hollister saying that the 2 Dec date stems from folks mis-interpreting Orderic's dating). #5 has nothing to do with this concern - which is the death date of Henry I, and even if it did address that - it has no indication of who is behind the site and who the author was. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:47, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Alison Weir

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alison_Weir

lison Weir (née Matthews) is a British author and public historian. She primarily writes about the history of English royal women and families, in the form of biographies that explore their historical setting. She has also written numerous works of historical fiction.

Her first work, Britain's Royal Families (published in 1989), was a genealogical overview of the British royal family. She subsequently wrote biographies of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France, Katherine Swynford, Elizabeth of York, and the Princes in the Tower. Other focuses have included Henry VIII and his family and England's Medieval Queens. Weir has published historical overviews of the Wars of the Roses and royal weddings, as well as historical fiction novels on English queens, including each wife of Henry VIII.

lison Weir (née Matthews) is a British author and public historian. She primarily writes about the history of English royal women and families, in the form of biographies that explore their historical setting. She has also written numerous works of historical fiction.

Her first work, Britain's Royal Families (published in 1989), was a genealogical overview of the British royal family. She subsequently wrote biographies of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France, Katherine Swynford, Elizabeth of York, and the Princes in the Tower. Other focuses have included Henry VIII and his family and England's Medieval Queens. Weir has published historical overviews of the Wars of the Roses and royal weddings, as well as historical fiction novels on English queens, including each wife of Henry VIII.

So, your statement about her is incorrect. Pipera (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Handbook of British chronology : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive https://archive.org/details/handbookofbritis0000unse/page/35/mode/1up?q=1135

Does not give a primary source for his date of death it simply sates a year and not sourced on page 35. Pipera (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Please learn to indent properly. Actually, the Handbook gives the sources for each section - previous to the section. And it's pretty much the gold standard for most dates if not superseded by later historian's work. And once more, there is no requirement for sources to be freely available, just that they be reliable. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

In any case he died one either the 1st or 2nd December 1135, according to sources. What gets me is in the rollback, you removed, her as Alison Weir as a credible source, you have rolled back The Henry Project based on OPINION, which is not what we do here, EVERYONE is free to come her and add sources without being censored what I have provided is a reliable source and have academic rigor added, they are sources form many outside sources in the case of the Henry Project their work is without question the veracity of their work should not be questioned. Pipera (talk) 23:04, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Additional Cited Records

1. Records were extracted from Robert of Torigni.
2. Orderic Vitalis.
3. Britain's royal families: the complete genealogy by Weir, Alison, 1951- Publication date 2002 has a comprehensive record of all children of Henry I.
4. The Henry Project a trusted site for medieval genealogy and the descendants of Herny II of England.

I reverted the entries on the main article.

The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England MALE Henry I King of England, 1100-1135. Duke of Normandy, 1106-1135.

Date of Death: 2 December 1135. [GND (Rob. Tor.) viii, 33 (v. 2, pp. 256-7); Chr. Rob. Tor., s.a. 1135; Ex Obituario Gemmeticensi, RHF 23: 422] Place of Death: Lyon-la-Forêt (Saint-Denis). [GND (Rob. Tor.) viii, 33 (v. 2, pp. 256-7); R. Dic. i, 247]

Chr. Rob. Tor. = L. C. Bethemann, ed., Roberti de Monte Chronica (a continuation by Robert de Torigny of the chronicle of Sigebert de Gembloux), MGH SS 6, 476-535.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm

Birth

Anno ab incarnatione Domini MLXVIIIº, ... priusquam annus perficeretur, filium nomine Henricum peperit In the year of the incarnation of the Lord 168th, ... before the year was completed, she gave birth to a son named Henry. Henricus, junior filius Willelmi magni, natus est in Anglia anno tertio postquam pater eam adierat" Wm. Malmes., Gesta Regum Henry, the younger son of William the Great, was born in England in the third year after his father had come to it." Wm. Malmes., Acts of the Kings

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/henry001.htm

https://fasg.org/

Categories

By including the categories Category:Children of Henry I of England and Category:Illegitimate children of Henry I of England, the article is saying that Henry was one of his own children and that he was one of his own mistresses. This is nonsense. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Resolved and removed. Pipera (talk) 23:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

You need to remove this is appearing there now. Pipera (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Family and children

Legitimate children

He had two children by Matilda (Edith), who died in 1118

• Matilda the Empress, (c. 1102-1167) Queen of England.
• William the Aetheling, (1103-1120) Duke of Normandy.

Disaster struck when William, his only legitimate son, perished in the wreck of the White Ship on 25 November 1120 off the coast of Normandy. Also, among the dead were two of Henry's illegitimate child ren, as well as a niece, Lucia-Mahaut de Blois. Henry's grieving was intense, and the succession was in crisis.

Second marriage

On 29 January 1121, he married Adeliza , daughter of Godfrey I of Leuven, Duke of Lower Lotharingia and Landgrave of Brabant, but there were no children from this marriage. Left without male heirs, Henry took the unprecedented step of making his barons swear to accept his daughter Empress Matilda, widow of Henry V, the Holy Roman Emperor, as his heir

Illegitimate children

King Henry is famed for holding the record for the largest number of acknowledged illegitimate children born to any English king. He had many mistresses.

His illegitimate offspring for whom there is documentation are and including documented names of his mistress, as stated in Britain's royal families: the complete genealogy by Weir, Alison, 1951- Publication date 2002m and the Henry Project.

1. Maud FitzRoy, married Conan III, Duke of Brittany
2. Constance FitzRoy, married Richard de Beaumont
3. Eustacia, wife of William Gouet ;
4. Aline FitzRoy, married Matthieu I of Montmorency
5. William dek Tracy, died shortly after King Henry.
6. Gilbert FitzRoy, died after 1142. His mother may have been a sister of Walter de Gand.
7. Emma, born circa 1138; married Gui de Laval, Lord Laval. [Uncertain, born 2 years after Henry died.] ;
8. Matilda FitzRoy, Abbess of Montivilliers
9. Constance, Viscountess of Beaumont-sur-Sarthe ;
10. Gundrada de Dunstanville;
11. Unknown daughter betrothed to Hugh FitzGervais
12. Adeliza.
13. Elizabeth Fitzroy, the wife of Fergus of Galloway ;
14. Possibly Sibyl of Falaise.
15. Rohese of England (1114 – 1146), married 1130 Henry de la Pomerai, son of Joscelin de la Pomerai.
16. William her married a lady called Alice.
17. Daughter married Helie de Saint-Saëns.
18. Daughter married Guillaume Goët de Montmirail.

With Edith

1. Matilda du Perche, married Count Rotrou II of Perche, perished in the wreck of the White Ship.;

With Ansfride

Ansfride was born c. 1070. She was the wife of Anskill of Seacourt, at Wytham in Berkshire (now Oxfordshire). tenant of Abingdon

1. Juliane de Fontevrault, married Eustace de Pacy. She tried to shoot her father with a crossbow after King Henry allowed her two young daughters to be blinded.
2. Fulk FitzRoy, a monk at Abingdon-on-Thames.
3. Richard of Lincoln, perished in the wreck of the White Ship. ;

With Sybil Corbet

Lady Sybilla Corbet of Alcester was born in 1077 in Alcester in Warwickshire. She married Herbert FitzHerbert, son of Herbert 'the Chamberlain' of Winchester and Emma de Blois. She died after 1157 and was also known as Adela (or Lucia) Corbet. Sybil was definitely mother of Sybil and Rainald, possibly also of William and Rohese. Some sources suggest that there was another daughter by this relationship, Gundred, but it appears that she was thought as such because she was a sister of Reginald de Dunstanville but it appears that that was another person of that name who was not related to this family.

1. Sybilla of England, married King Alexander I of Scotland.
2. William Constable, born before 1105. Married Alice (Constable); died after 1187.
3. Reginald de Dunstanville, 1st Earl of Cornwall.

With Edith FitzForne

1. Robert FitzEdith, Lord Okehampton, (1093 – 1172) married Dame Maud d'Avranches daughter of Robert d'Avranches;
2. Adeliza FitzEdith. Appears in charters with her brother Robert.

With Princess Nesta

Nest ferch Rhys was born about 1073 at Dynefwr Castle, Carmarthenshire, the daughter of Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth and his wife, Gwladys ferch Rhywallon. She married, in 1095, to Gerald de Windsor (aka Geraldus FitzWalter) son of Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. She had several other liaisons - including one with Stephen of Cardigan, Constable of Cardigan (1136) - and subsequently other illegitimate children. The date of her death is unknown.

1. Henry FitzRoy, died 1157.

With Isabel de Beaumont

Isabel (Elizabeth) de Beaumont (after 1102 – after 1172), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, sister of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester. She married Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke, in 1130. She was also known as Isabella de Meulan.

1. Isabel of England, born circa 1078.

Unknown Woman

1. Robert, 1st Earl of Gloucester. Often, probably incorrectly, said to have been a son of Sybil Corbet. His mother may have been a member of the Gai/Gay/Gayt family. He is also referred to Robert de Caen. He became Lord of Gloucestershire in 1122

G. E. Cokayne, in his Complete Peerage

1. The complete peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, Vol. 11
2. G. E. Cokayne, in his Complete Peerage, Vol. XI, Appendix D pps 105-121

[G. E. Cokayne, in his Complete Peerage, Vol. XI, Appendix D pps 105-121 attemps to elucidate Henry I's illegiimate children. For Mistress Sybil Corbet, he indicates that Rohese married Henry de la Pomerai [ibid.:119]. In any case, the dates concerning Rohese in the above article are difficult to reconcile on face value, her purported children having seemingly been born before their mother, and also before the date of her mother's purported marriage.]

Additional Cited Records

1. Records were extracted from Robert of Torigni.
2. Orderic Vitalis.
3. Britain's royal families: the complete genealogy by Weir, Alison, 1951- Publication date 2002 has a comprehensive record of all children of Henry I.
4. The Henry Project a trusted site for medieval genealogy and the descendants of Herny II of England.
5. Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Henry Illegitimate Children (PROPOSED CORRECTIONS).

Revision as of 12:31, 7 February 2010 - Revision as of 12:31, 7 February 2010 - Revision as of 12:30, 7 February 2010 edit

The following archival material was accessed in the construction of this family. there are many archival entries that support this version from Wikipedia.

1. This is based on a collection of information that was previously removed for unknown reasons, every accuracy has been made to restore this to its original context. The previous format of the children is not correct and bundles all the children into two groups sons and daughters, this has been corrected, and two additional records have been added, and modification of illegitimate children added.

References

Family tree

Norman English and early Plantagenet monarchs and their relationship with rulers of Western Europe

   : Red borders indicate English monarchs
   : Bold borders indicate legitimate children of English monarchs

See also: Family tree of English monarchs

Baldwin II King of Jerusalem

Fulk IV Count of Anjou

Bertrade of Montfort

Philip I King of France

William the Conqueror King of England r. 1066–1087

Saint Margaret of Scotland

Malcolm III King of Scotland

Melisende Queen of Jerusalem

Fulk V King of Jerusalem

Eremburga of Maine

Robert Curthose

William II King of England r. 1087–1100

Adela of Normandy

Henry I King of England r. 1100–1135

Matilda of Scotland

Duncan II King of Scotland

Edgar King of Scotland

Alexander I King of Scotland

David I King of Scotland

Sibylla of Anjou

William Clito

Stephen King of England r. 1135–1154

Geoffrey Plantagenet Count of Anjou

Empress Matilda

William Adelin

Matilda of Anjou

Henry of Scotland

Margaret I

Philip of Alsace Count of Flanders

Louis VII King of France

Eleanor of Aquitaine

Henry II King of England r. 1154–1189

Geoffrey Count of Nantes

William FitzEmpress

Malcolm IV King of Scotland

William the Lion King of Scotland

Baldwin I Latin Emperor

Isabella of Hainault

Philip II King of France

Henry the Young King

Matilda Duchess of Saxony

Richard I King of England r. 1189–1199

Geoffrey II Duke of Brittany

Eleanor

Alfonso VIII King of Castile

Joan

William II King of Sicily

John King of England r. 1199–1216

Louis VIII King of France

Otto IV Holy Roman Emperor

Arthur I Duke of Brittany

Blanche of Castile Queen of France

Henry III King of England r. 1216–1272

Richard of Cornwall King of the Romans

Joan Queen of Scotland

Alexander II King of Scotland

And you constantly roll back what I have added, and what we had there in 2006 > period.

Further backed up by Alison Weir and Unknown Mistresses of King Henry I of England https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Unknown_Mistresses_of_King_Henry_I_of_England

I really do not get why you are rolling this back.

Or am I missing something? Pipera (talk) 18:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Using these within a Wikipedia Article

Broken up into:

• Legitimate children of Henry I
• Illegitimate children of Henry I
• Mistress of Henry I

There is no rule here stating that these cannot be used within any part of a Wikipedia entry.

You also removed Alison Weir as a reference, explain to me why she was removed? Pipera (talk) 18:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page...

I cannot understand why, with this edit, large chunks of ... something (article text? Old article text? references? Something?) have been added to the talk page. It's extremely disruptive and not helpful to figuring out what is trying to be communicated. It wastes other editor's time and is disrepectful of them. The reason the additions keep getting removed is:

1. we do not include category links in the body of articles as a general rule, and including them under a heading of "synopsis" is misleading to the readers - a category listing of children of Henry I is NOT a synopsis, it's just a listing that repeats what's in this article, so it's useless.
2. Weir was removed because she's not an academic historian and we already have a perfectly good academic source (Thompson) for this information.
3. Wikitree is NOT a reliable source and should not be used for this article. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.)
4. The Henry II project is certainly laudable, but again, it's not an academic source, and we don't need it when we have Thompson. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.) If other recent academic sources disagree with Thompson, then we can explicate those sources, but we do not include non-reliable sources in a WP:Featured Article, which this is.
5. we don't consult the original primary sources (such as Orderic or Robert of Torigni) because we are not academic historians, but instead editors of an encyclopedia. We summarize secondary academic works. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.)
6. We do not need three different family charts that repeat pretty much the same information, that wastes reader's time
7. And for what feels like the hundredth time - we do not insert spaces between punctuation/text/references and the (next) reference. This is fast approaching the point where it is so disruptive that it may need to be reported to a noticeboard.

And that is just the start of all the problems that keep being introduced. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

1. we do not include category links in the body of articles as a general rule, and including them under a heading of "synopsis" is misleading to the readers - a category listing of children of Henry I is NOT a synopsis, it's just a listing that repeats what's in this article, so it's useless.

So where does this get mentioned in any part of the article, there is no breakup of any of these children and mistresses.

Further, Weir, WikiTree and The Henry Project strongly disagree with you.

1. Weir was removed because she's not an academic historian and we already have a perfectly good academic source (Thompson) for this information.

Alison Weir (née Matthews) is a British author and public historian. She primarily writes about the history of English royal women and families, in the form of biographies that explore their historical setting. She has also written numerous works of historical fiction.[1]

Her first work, Britain's Royal Families (published in 1989), was a genealogical overview of the British royal family. She subsequently wrote biographies of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France, Katherine Swynford, Elizabeth of York, and the Princes in the Tower. Other focuses have included Henry VIII and his family and England's Medieval Queens. Weir has published historical overviews of the Wars of the Roses and royal weddings, as well as historical fiction novels on English queens, including each wife of Henry VIII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alison_Weir

That is factually incorrect

1. Wikitree is NOT a reliable source and should not be used for this article. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.)

That sis factually incorrect, and is your stated personal opinion , they represent what was stated by the Henry Project and Weir which you rolled back and censored me in removing her as a source when she is clearly a noted author.

1. The Henry II project is certainly laudable, but again, it's not an academic source, and we don't need it when we have Thompson. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.) If other recent academic sources disagree with Thompson, then we can explicate those sources, but we do not include non-reliable sources in a WP:Featured Article, which this is.

That is your personal opinion, Baldwin is a noted author.

The American Society of Genealogists https://fasg.org/

Stewart Baldwin https://fasg.org/fellows/stewart-baldwin/

See: Principal genealogical publications:

1. we don't consult the original primary sources (such as Orderic or Robert of Torigni) because we are not academic historians, but instead editors of an encyclopedia. We summarize secondary academic works. (This has been repeatedly pointed out previously.)

In your opinion which is not in step with major authors of genealogy and other histyoric works.

Robert of Torigni

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Torigni

Robert of Torigni or Torigny (French: Robert de Torigni; c. 1110–1186), also known as Robert of the Mont (Latin: Robertus de Monte; French: Robert de Monte; also Robertus de Monte Sancti Michaelis, in reference to the abbey of Mont Saint-Michel), was a Norman monk, prior, and abbot. He is most remembered for his chronicles detailing English history of his era.

https://entities.oclc.org/worldcat/entity/E39PBJxhgfHcDqQdqcGCG7gh73.html

https://viaf.org/viaf/51662293/

• Wikipedia - https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_von_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ρομπέρ_ντε_Τορινί
• Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_di_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertus_de_Torigneio
• Wikipedia - https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_van_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_av_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_z_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_ëd_Torigni
• Wikipedia - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Роберт_де_Ториньи

Featured in multi-language sites here at Wikipedia. So, you need to retract that argument.

1. We do not need three different family charts that repeat pretty much the same information, that wastes reader's time

The charts removed are in other Wikipedia articles, and they support what is here anyway so what is the issue.

1. And for what feels like the hundredth time - we do not insert spaces between punctuation/text/references and the (next) reference. This is fast approaching the point where it is so disruptive that it may need to be reported to a noticeboard.

Most of what is said is refuted in what I have answered above. Pipera (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

= Robert of Torigni =

Robert of Torigni was born at Torigni-sur-Vire in central Normandy, at an unknown date. Entered the monastery of Le Bec in 1128. Became prior there in c. 1149. Elected abbot of Mont-Saint-Michel in 1154. Died on 23 or 24 June (29 May) 1186. Robert was an "avid reader" and collected religious and "profane" books. As prior and abbot, he was far more involved in the outside world than either of the two co-authors of the Gesta Normannorum Ducum, Orderic Vitalis and William of Jumièges. Robert's revision of the GND dates from 1139 and was his first substantial work. He wrote additions and appendices to the Chronicle of Sigebert of Gembloux, covering the period A.D. 385-1100; and the GND is a continuation of Sigebert, extending from 1100 to 1186. It is for continental affairs between 1154 to 1170 that his information is valuable.

== Sources ==

• Encyclopædia Britannica, fourteenth edition, in the public domain.
• The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni edited and translated by Elisabeth M. C. Van Houts. Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995.

Note:

• The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni edited and translated by Elisabeth M. C. Van Houts. Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995.

https://www.1066.co.nz/Mosaic%20DVD/whoswho/text/Robert_of_Torigni[1].htm

Orderic Vitalis

Orderic Vitalis (1075 – c. 1142) was an English chronicler who wrote one of the great contemporary chronicles of 11th and 12th century Normandy and England.

https://www.1066.co.nz/Mosaic%20DVD/whoswho/text/Orderic_Vitalis[1].htm

See entry On Henry I excerpts translated by David Burr.

Gesta Normannorum Ducum

Gesta Normannorum Ducum (Deeds of the Norman Dukes) is a written work originally created by the monk William of Jumièges just before 1060. In 1070 William I had William of Jumièges extend the work to detail his rights to the throne of England. In later times, Orderic Vitalis (d. c. 1142) and Robert of Torigni (d. 1186), extended the volumes to include history up until Henry I.

https://www.1066.co.nz/Mosaic%20DVD/whoswho/text/Gesta_Normannorum_Ducum[1].htm

• The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni edited and translated by Elisabeth M. C. Van Houts. Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995.

The above are why we use their works in genealogy on ALL reliable sites. Pipera (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The memory of Robert of Torigni from the twelfth century to the present day =

La mémoire de Robert de Torigni du XIIe siècle à nos jours

Benjamin Pohl

https://books.openedition.org/puc/30622?lang=en

Published online by Cambridge University Press:  05 November 2013

Edited by

Richard Howlett

{| class="wikitable"

|

== Robert of Torigni's Chronicle ==

11/6/2018

Patrick C. DeBrosse|}

https://www.angevinempire.org/sources/robert-of-torignis-chronicle

{| class="wikitable"

|

== Robert of Torigni's Chronicle ==

11/6/2018

Patrick C. DeBrosse

Avranches, Bibliothèque Municipale, MS. 159, f. 205r

From Pohl, "Date and Context," p. 11.

Manuscripts

Avranches, Bibliothèque Municipale, Ms. 159. [Robert's working copy]

While Robert's working copy of the Chronicle survives, the subsequent manuscript tradition is complicated by the fact that some copies seem to have been made at intermediate stages during Robert's composition. An overview of the 18 surviving "core" manuscripts and their relationship to one another is in Delisle, "Préface," liii-lv. Howlett, "Preface," pp. xxxvii-lxv, offers somewhat different conclusions about these same 18 manuscripts. Benjamin Pohl reevaluated and revised some of Delisle and Howlett's conclusions in Pohl, "Date and Context," 1-18.  

Modern Editions and Translations

Robert of Torigni. Roberti de Monte Cronica. In G. H. Pertz (ed.), Monumenta Germaniae

historica inde ab anno Christi quingentensimo usque ad annum millesimum et quingentesimum: Scriptorum; Tomus VI, edited by C. Berthmann, 475-535. Hanover: Impensis Bibliopolii, 1844.

_____. Chronique de Robert de Torigni, abbé du Mont-Saint-Michel. 2 volumes. Edited by

Léopold Delisle. Rouen: A. Le Brumentm 1872-3.

_____. Chronicles of the Reigns of Stephen, Henry II., and Richard I.: Vol. IV; The Chronicle of

Robert of Torigni, Abbot of the Monastery of St. Michael-in-Peril-of-the-Sea. Edited by Richard Howlett. London: HMSO, 1889.

_____. The Chronicles of Robert de Monte. In The Church Historians of England: vol. IV; Part

II. Translated by Joseph Stevenson. London: Seeleys, 1856. [partial English translation].

Description

Robert of Torigni, monk of Bec and subsequently (from 1154) abbot of Mont-Saint-Michel, was a prolific writer, whose first major project was a continuation of the Gesta Normannorum Ducum. Robert's Chronicle, was his ambitious follow-up: a world history, which sought to narrate events from the time of Abraham to Robert's own lifetime, with a particular emphasis on events within Normandy and England. Robert copied the bulk of the pre-1100 portion of his Chronicle from Sigebert of Gembloux, but interpolated material from other authors freely. For the period between 1100 and 1147, Robert relied upon Henry of Huntingdon's Historia Anglorum, though Robert altered the text of the Historia substantially in places. From 1147 Robert's Chronicle becomes original. Robert seems to have created an initial draft that ended in 1150, but gradually expanded the Chronicle to cover events through 1186, the year of Robert's death. The Chronicle owes much to annalistic writing in terms of style, and tends to offer few authorial judgments of the events described. Robert does, however, offer occasional comments about events that he witnessed in person. Throughout the sections original to Robert, he pays particular attention to local Church affairs, such as the succession of Norman abbots and bishops.

Importance for the study of Angevin History

The Chronicle is distinct as a work begun at the very start of Henry II's reign, written in a style which had become old-fashioned by the end of Henry's reign (in contrast to the forms of history-writing pioneered by secular clerics at Henry's court). Robert's Chronicle, unlike many histories from the Angevin period, was completed before the death of Henry II, the events of the Third Crusade, and the Loss of Normandy, so it does not look forward to these events as later histories often do. Though the Chronicle has received less scholarly attention than other works of the Angevin period, Robert's status as a powerful abbot has led to scholarly discussion of his relationship with Henry II, and of how history-writing figured into that relationship. Scholars such as Elisabeth van Houts see in Robert an opportunistic author, who was able to use history-writing to gain promotion and concessions from Henry II by praising Matilda's faction in his passages on the Anarchy, extolling the genealogy of the dukes of the Normans, and sticking to a conventional, accessible, and inoffensive form of annalistic writing. Robert's pro-Henry II stance is evident from the fact that he seems to have presented a copy of the Chronicle to Henry. More generally, David Bates sees in Robert a devotee of "Normanitas" who suppressed material critical of the Norman people and who sought out books about Normans from far-away places such as Sicily. Equally important for Bates, Robert displays an intense interest in the history of England, suggesting that Robert felt a sense of unified cross-Channel identity. Finally, as the scholarly debates over the date at which Robert acquired Henry of Huntingdon's Historia and over Robert's scribal practices indicate, the Chronicle allows us to peak into the twelfth-century intellectual and social spheres that fostered history-writing. It is clear from Robert's incorporation of the Historia into his Chronicle and from the copies had had made of the Chronicle that there was an intense demand for history-writing during the Angevin period, and that there was a strong, self-conscious dialogue between monastic scholars of different parts of the Angevin Empire.

Bibliography

Bates, David. "Robert of Torigni and the Historia Anglorum." In The English and Their Legacy:

900-1200: Essays in Honour of Ann Williams, edited by David Roffe, 175-84. Woodbridge: Boydell Press, 2012.

Delisle, Léopold. "Préface," In Chronique de Robert de Torigni, abbé du Mont-Saint-Michel, 2

volumes, edited by Léopold Delisle, i-lxv. Rouen: A. Le Brumentm 1872-3.

Howlett, Richard. "Preface." Chronicles of the Reigns of Stephen, Henry II., and Richard I.: Vol.

IV; The Chronicle of Robert of Torigni, Abbot of the Monastery of St. Michael-in-Peril- of-the-Sea, edited by Richard Howlett, vii-lxix. London: HMSO, 1889.

Pohl, Benjamin. "Abbas qui et scriptor? The Handwriting of Robert of Torigni and His Scribal

Activity As Abbot of Mont-Saint-Michel (1154-1186)." Traditio 69 (2014): 45-86.

_____. "The Date and Context of Robert of Torigni’s Chronica in London, British Library,

Cotton MS. Domitian A. VIII, ff. 71r-94v." Electronic British Library Journal (2016): http://www.bl.uk/eblj/2016articles/article1.html.

Van Houts, Elisabeth. "Latin and French as Languages of the Past in Normandy during the Reign

of Henry II: Robert of Torigny, Stephen of Rouen, and Wace." In Writers of the Reign of Henry II: Twelve Essays, edited by Ruth Kennedy and Simon Meecham-Jones, 53-78. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006.

_____. "Robert of Torigni As Genealogist." In Studies in Medieval History Presented to R. Allen

Brown, edited by Christopher Harper-Bill, Christopher J. Holdsworth, and Janet L. Nelson, 215-34. Woodbridge: Boydell Press, 1989.

_____. "Le roi et son historien: Henri II Plantagenêt et Robert de Torigni, abbé du Saint-Michel."

Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale 37, no. 145-1 (1994): 115-8.

|} Pipera (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

References

1. "there is no breakup of any of these children and mistresses", yes, there is. There is a list in this article of his children with their mothers. Each of those children who has an article has a link to that article. There is nothing in the category links that adds anything to what is already in the article. Thus, we do not need duplicate links through a category with a misleading heading that implies that there is more information for the reader in the category listing. There is not.
2. Weir - I didn't say or argue that she's not a historian; I said "she's not an academic historian, and we already have a perfectly good academic source (Thompson) for this information". I.e., the cites to Weir don't provide anything that Thompson doesn't already, so there is no need for them. Please engage with the actual arguments, and do not add a whole bunch of unnecessary information about Weir when no one said she's not a historian, just that in a WP:Featured Article, we try to rely on the highest quality sources, such as academic sources, like Thompson. So Weir is unneeded, and since she doesn't cite her own sources (yes, I have Weir's book and consulted it to be doubly sure), we are better off going with a source that does cite their sources.
3. Wikitree is a user-generated site. See WP:UGC, which states, "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include...most wikis and other collaboratively created websites." Thus, being user-generated, it's unreliable here.
4. Henry II project - again, not arguing that Baldwin is not a noted author, but it is not an academic source and, as above, we do not need it since we have Thompson. Please engage with the actual reasons provided.
5. About primary sources, such as Robert of Torigni, see WP:RSPRIMARY. We avoid the use of primary sources. The rest of the information you gave is just useless and makes it harder for other editors to engage with you, by wasting our time reading through a pile of links. And I will not retract this argument because it's foundational to what we do here - we summarize secondary sources.
6. The issue with three family charts on the same thing is the same reason you don't write "The sky is blue. Blue is the sky. Skies are blue. Blue is the color of the sky." in an encyclopedia article on the atmosphere. It is redundant.
7. And then you again add utterly unnecessary information to the post you make, wasting other editor's time by having to read through a bunch of information not related to the arguments (such as the information on Robert of Torigni (some of which repeats stuff just above), Orderic Vitalis, or the Gesta Normanum Ducum).
8. "The above is why we use their works in genealogy on ALL reliable sites." This is the crux of the problem. We are NOT a genealogical site. We are an encyclopedia. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Trying to make articles on this site into genealogical entries is not helpful and disruptive when you've been repeatedly told that it is not what our purpose is. Nor are we academic researchers writing scholarly monographs. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

1. there is no breakup of any of these children and mistresses", yes, there is. There is a list in this article of his children with their mothers. Each of those children who has an article has a link to that article. There is nothing in the category links that adds anything to what is already in the article. Thus, we do not need duplicate links through a category with a misleading heading that implies that there is more information for the reader in the category listing. There is not.

There should be, and that is the custom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

Wives, concubines, and children

Example, so this is the way it is for many of these types of entries, it gives the article clarity, instead now we have second guessing and this is taken to assignment work quoting this entry, which is historically incorrect.

1. Weir - I didn't say or argue that she's not a historian; I said "she's not an academic historian, and we already have a perfectly good academic source (Thompson) for this information". I.e., the cites to Weir don't provide anything that Thompson doesn't already, so there is no need for them. Please engage with the actual arguments, and do not add a whole bunch of unnecessary information about Weir when no one said she's not a historian, just that in a WP:Featured Article, we try to rely on the highest quality sources, such as academic sources, like Thompson. So Weir is unneeded, and since she doesn't cite her own sources (yes, I have Weir's book and consulted it to be doubly sure), we are better off going with a source that does cite their sources.

In your opinion, others disagree with your analogy.

1. Wikitree is a user-generated site. See WP:UGC, which states, "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include...most wikis and other collaboratively created websites." Thus, being user-generated, it's unreliable here.

This site is user generated, so this is a non-valid argument. Essentially, you are saying that this article is unreliable.  

1. Henry II project - again, not arguing that Baldwin is not a noted author, but it is not an academic source and, as above, we do not need it since we have Thompson. Please engage with the actual reasons provided.

In your opinion, the site has never been a source here, and the site has academic credential, the details there are more technical the Latin language aside, which if anyone in doing history in this time period needs to be able to read Latin, German and French.

1. About primary sources, such as Robert of Torigni, see WP:RSPRIMARY. We avoid the use of primary sources. The rest of the information you gave is just useless and makes it harder for other editors to engage with you, by wasting our time reading through a pile of links. And I will not retract this argument because it's foundational to what we do here - we summarize secondary sources.

He is extended above a primary source, every aspect of this period in history in EVERY textbook, and the materials here comes from his work, he actually was around back then, The above is in your opinion.

1. The issue with three family charts on the same thing is the same reason you don't write "The sky is blue. Blue is the sky. Skies are blue. Blue is the color of the sky." in an encyclopedia article on the atmosphere. It is redundant.

In relation to the charts etc they come from other articles here so there is no viewpoint to be examined here.

1. And then you again add utterly unnecessary information to the post you make, wasting other editor's time by having to read through a bunch of information not related to the arguments (such as the information on Robert of Torigni (some of which repeats stuff just above), Orderic Vitalis, or the Gesta Normanum Ducum).

In your opinion, academics like me would argue that their work trumps what this article is lacking.

1. "The above is why we use their works in genealogy on ALL reliable sites." This is the crux of the problem. We are NOT a genealogical site. We are an encyclopedia. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Trying to make articles on this site into genealogical entries is not helpful and disruptive when you've been repeatedly told that it is not what our purpose is. Nor are we academic researchers writing scholarly monographs. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is no user page for WP:NOTGENEALOGY. It goes to a redirect.

4. Genealogical entries. Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic. This is a notable toipic. Pipera (talk) 01:11, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Robert of Torigni

Robert of Torigni

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Torigni

Works

[edit]

Robert is best known as the last of the three contributors to the Gesta Normannorum Ducum ('Deeds of the Norman Dukes'), a chronicle originally written by William of Jumièges, appended to by Orderic Vitalis and lastly Robert de Torigni, who brought the history up to the time of Henry I. Robert relied more on Orderic's work than that of William of Jumièges and added information regarding the reign of William the Conqueror, a history of Bec, and a volume on Henry I. Another source he used was Henry of Huntingdon's Historia Anglorum. Henry, the Archdeacon of Huntingdon, had visited Bec in 1139 and during his stay there provided Robert with much of the information regarding the reign of Henry I which Robert used in his own chronicles. Robert, in turn, introduced Henry to a new work by Geoffrey of Monmouth, the Historia Regum Britanniae, a copy of which first reached Bec about 1138.

Notes

[edit]

1. ^ Elisabeth van Houts in her article ('Robert of Torigni as Genealogist', Studies in Medieval History presented to R. Allen Brown, Boydell Press, 1989, p. 222) suggests that not all the mistakes in Robert de Torigni's Chronicles are his own, that a few are attributable to modern historians who have difficulty with his narrative-style genealogies.
2. ^ Dr. James Bruce analyzed the writing style of these two romances compared to the writings of Robert de Torigni. His opinion was they did not match, and also pointed out how Bale made the mistake of attributing these romances to Robert based on an incorrect assumption. Additional evidence shows these romances to be the products of thirteenth century writers, not twelfth. See: Two Arthurian Romances of the XIIIth Century in Latin Prose, ed. J. Douglas Bruce (Johns Hopkins Press, 1913), pp. x-xv, sub: "II. Bale's ascription of the romances to Robert de Torigni". Also see: Mildred Leake Day, Latin Arthurian literature (Cambridge: Brewer, 2005), pp. 3–11 for more discussion.

25 sourced articles. Pipera (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)